Standard vs. Proprietary plugging system
The best way to allow transitions to happen smoothly is to slowly adapt new technologies while still supporting old infrastructure. Some call this backwards compatibility.
So why is BP proposing the use of a proprietary plugging system and proprietary charging stations? I realize that the stations will be higher voltage and possibly higher amperage however do they really need to install costly stations to accomplish this? No. There are solutions to this:
1. Install standard high power NEMA outlets and wiring of a 240V AC setup by an established and less specialized (less costly) electrician.
2. Use existing outlets (120V AC) and accept that the vehicle will take longer to charge. This would not be an issue if you are plugging in for a standard 8 hour work day like most of the population anyways.
3. Accommodate both 1 and 2 with multiple charging capabilities/options
HOWEVER, in order to follow BPs vision this flow of electricity must be tracked; similar to how a cell provider would track minutes. To accomplish this a data link would need to be established between the vehicle and BP's servers. The data link is the easy part. Using a power-line Ethernet device attached somewhere on the local power grid that link can be established and the flow of electricity can be "authorized" by the BP central command server, again similar to turning a phone on except this is plugging a car in. Once the authorization has been received the car would close the circuit and begin transferring energy, the whole time tracking the amount of energy being utilized by the user/vehicle.
This used energy would be tagged to that powerline router device and that portion of the power bill would be directed to Betterplace for payment. Parking lots/companies/users/anyone could install these 'BP power-line routers' supplied and receive tax benefits for doing so. once the router is installed simply put a little BP sticker on the outlet indicating that outlet it is setup for BP charging (see pic attached).
There is NO need for all this expensive infrastructure which is the largest obsticale of the BetterPlace idea. Setting up a smart grid as noted about could reduce costs by an order of magnitude.
So why is BP proposing the use of a proprietary plugging system and proprietary charging stations? I realize that the stations will be higher voltage and possibly higher amperage however do they really need to install costly stations to accomplish this? No. There are solutions to this:
1. Install standard high power NEMA outlets and wiring of a 240V AC setup by an established and less specialized (less costly) electrician.
2. Use existing outlets (120V AC) and accept that the vehicle will take longer to charge. This would not be an issue if you are plugging in for a standard 8 hour work day like most of the population anyways.
3. Accommodate both 1 and 2 with multiple charging capabilities/options
HOWEVER, in order to follow BPs vision this flow of electricity must be tracked; similar to how a cell provider would track minutes. To accomplish this a data link would need to be established between the vehicle and BP's servers. The data link is the easy part. Using a power-line Ethernet device attached somewhere on the local power grid that link can be established and the flow of electricity can be "authorized" by the BP central command server, again similar to turning a phone on except this is plugging a car in. Once the authorization has been received the car would close the circuit and begin transferring energy, the whole time tracking the amount of energy being utilized by the user/vehicle.
This used energy would be tagged to that powerline router device and that portion of the power bill would be directed to Betterplace for payment. Parking lots/companies/users/anyone could install these 'BP power-line routers' supplied and receive tax benefits for doing so. once the router is installed simply put a little BP sticker on the outlet indicating that outlet it is setup for BP charging (see pic attached).
There is NO need for all this expensive infrastructure which is the largest obsticale of the BetterPlace idea. Setting up a smart grid as noted about could reduce costs by an order of magnitude.
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Matthias Ludwig on -
Hi Paul,
do you think a standard outlet it weather proof ? I personally would not like to connect a plug into a wet outlet.
How many connect cycles does such a outlet allow before the connection resistance will be bad or even dangerous.
I think safety and durability comes first.
The only argument against the current Better Place charging spot design is that everyone can de-plug the connector while
the EV is beeing charged. Or is there something like a disconnect lock inside the charge spot which is not visible ?
The Europeans (and Germans) do always expect the worst and so they mandate that the charging spot should be
safe and easy to use and to be vandalism proof as well. Only the owner of the EV should be able to open the charge spot flap which covers the connector.
To effectively control the charging of the EV Better Place need to cooperate with the utilities to get load information from the grid and the power stations. This is no off the shelf technology. The good news is that the utilities are aware of this and will work on the technical standards allowing the control of the grid load and to make effective use of the energy from renewable sources like wind- solar- and other powersources.
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Permalink Reply by DaveinTO on -
Has grid security been discussed much? I think it could be a large problem for BP.
E.g., http://www.cnn.com/2009/TECH/03/20/smartgrid.vulnerability/
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Permalink Reply by Paul Gill on -
matthias ludwig said:Hi Paul,
do you think a standard outlet it weather proof ? I personally would not like to connect a plug into a wet outlet.
How many connect cycles does such a outlet allow before the connection resistance will be bad or even dangerous.
I think safety and durability comes first.
The only argument against the current Better Place charging spot design is that everyone can de-plug the connector while
the EV is beeing charged. Or is there something like a disconnect lock inside the charge spot which is not visible ?
The Europeans (and Germans) do always expect the worst and so they mandate that the charging spot should be
safe and easy to use and to be vandalism proof as well. Only the owner of the EV should be able to open the charge spot flap which covers the connector.
To effectively control the charging of the EV Better Place need to cooperate with the utilities to get load information from the grid and the power stations. This is no off the shelf technology. The good news is that the utilities are aware of this and will work on the technical standards allowing the control of the grid load and to make effective use of the energy from renewable sources like wind- solar- and other powersources.
Matthias,
In response to your comments:
1. Standard power outlets ARE weather proof. They have been used for engine block heaters in all Canadian automobiles for the last 30 years. The only issue is the outlet which will always have a spring loaded cover that stops the holes from filling with snow (this is a requirement of Canadian building code). ALSO the breakers used for that outlet can be GFI which would add more protection/safety if needed
2. NEMA outlets (115 or 230) can be plugged in many... many... many times. There's a reason why they have been used and not redesigned for the past 50 years.
3. I think to design a vandalism proof plugging system would be very complicated with very little reward. Auto and tire manufactures have made no efforts to make a locked value-stem on your tires, and how many times have you walked out to your car to find that someone has let out all your air?
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Permalink Reply by Paul Gill on
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DaveinTO said:Has grid security been discussed much? I think it could be a large problem for BP.
E.g., http://www.cnn.com/2009/TECH/03/20/smartgrid.vulnerability/
Dave,
The use of power-line ethernet is a much smaller scale and different technology than the article you mentioned here. I really should have labeled the discussion "Standard vs. Proprietary plugging system" not "smart-grid".
Firstly, the ethernet comms would use TCP/IP encryption standards which are now quite secure
Secondly, to protect the "network" (parking lot) a simple filter could be installed to block any signs from leaving the network if the transformer supplying the power to the parking lot has not already blocked it.
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Permalink Reply by DXR_13KE on -
DaveinTO said:Has grid security been discussed much? I think it could be a large problem for BP.
E.g., http://www.cnn.com/2009/TECH/03/20/smartgrid.vulnerability/
Any system can be hacked, even the current fuel system can.
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Permalink Reply by DaveinTO on
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DXR_13KE said:
Any system can be hacked, even the current fuel system can.
That's not a solution to the problem.
Anyway, Paul, I posted the article link because it was just an example of a bigger problem for the company, I wasn't trying to make too many direct comparisons to your proposal and sorry for throwing your thread off track.
Several issues still come to mind regarding your proposal though (assuming I understand it correctly). First of all, how do you stop someone from plugging anything (car, laptop, lawnmower, etc.) into these outlets and using them for things other than battery recharging? In addition, while outdoor outlets are generally safe, I know BP and I'm sure gov'ts as well, do not feel comfortable with putting live outlets all over the place. You have to think of worst case scenarios like kids coming along and sticking forks into the outlets, or some drunk guy pissing on one in the middle of the night. The system that BP has come up with has made it so that the outlet only "turns on" once a link has been made between the outlet and the car and the outlet verifies that it is an authorized car. Therefore you can't electrocute yourself by just playing with the outlet. I supposed something could be rigged like that with a regular outlet but that means adding more infrastructure as well.
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Permalink Reply by Paul Gill on
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DXR_13KE said:DaveinTO said:Has grid security been discussed much? I think it could be a large problem for BP.
E.g., http://www.cnn.com/2009/TECH/03/20/smartgrid.vulnerability/
Any system can be hacked, even the current fuel system can.
THAT IS A GREAT POINT!!
I'd be much more worried about someone pissing in my gas tank (currently possible on MANY cars) rather than someone unplugging me!
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Permalink Reply by Paul Gill on
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DaveinTO said:DXR_13KE said:
Any system can be hacked, even the current fuel system can.
That's not a solution to the problem.
Anyway, Paul, I posted the article link because it was just an example of a bigger problem for the company, I wasn't trying to make too many direct comparisons to your proposal and sorry for throwing your thread off track.
Several issues still come to mind regarding your proposal though (assuming I understand it correctly). First of all, how do you stop someone from plugging anything (car, laptop, lawnmower, etc.) into these outlets and using them for things other than battery recharging? In addition, while outdoor outlets are generally safe, I know BP and I'm sure gov'ts as well, do not feel comfortable with putting live outlets all over the place. You have to think of worst case scenarios like kids coming along and sticking forks into the outlets, or some drunk guy pissing on one in the middle of the night. The system that BP has come up with has made it so that the outlet only "turns on" once a link has been made between the outlet and the car and the outlet verifies that it is an authorized car. Therefore you can't electrocute yourself by just playing with the outlet. I supposed something could be rigged like that with a regular outlet but that means adding more infrastructure as well.
Dave,
The frame of reference i have for this is the fact that in Northern climates in North America MOST parking lots have LIVE outlets to accommodate <-40 degree Celsius weather conditions. So i am puzzled why you seem to think a simple power outlet is such a huge safety concern? As i already mentioned above outdoor outlets are required by code to have spring covers which protect from most weather and even pee ;) In my 30 years in Canada i have not heard of parking outlets being banded due to a child or a drunk electrocuting themselves.
If this does remain to be a safety concern a simple solution would be to route all circuits through a switching device that is controlled by the BP powerline device. In the event a car is plugged in, the powerline router authorizes the vehicle and closes the circuit to the designated outlet, therefore making the receptacle live only once a data connection has been established: similar to how it would be done on a BP station, but much more centralized and therefore much more cost effective.
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Permalink Reply by EVHappy on
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This is a great discussion and hints at a huge issue. Standards. It's good that just last week the IEEE established the P2030 group to work on such smart-grid standards. There are other such groups and organizations starting up and I hope they all work together to come up with a national standard that adequately addresses all of the issues. Here are just some of them:
1) Compatibility
2) Openness of the network
3) Smart-grid capability
4) Upgrade path
5) Cost of hardware and maintenance
6) Safety
7) Theft
8) Vandalism
9) Weatherproofing
10) etc.
So many issues that need to be hammered out BEFORE things go live.
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